DEIMOS

#That everybody knows the minimal amount they need to know about the whole big picture and 
the way it is functioning as part of the whole. #So you are the contact person that I saw, correct. 
#So, there's a couple new faces here. You know everybody Dan? #I do, actually. # I'm Drew Phil-
lips. #I knew that actually, and do you know everybody? #No. #Barry. We should say a little bit 
about what we are doing. #I am engineering department. #Barry is from electronics, Eric is from 
mechanical shop, Jack is the engineer, Brian you know, Richard you know, Chris Wright is our 
new electronics engineer. #And I am the guardian angel. #There are two kinds of angels, Joe! #We 
have a management plan which actually says that Joe is the guardian angel. It says in fact to 
quote, that Joe is the guardian angel who solves the problems that nobody else can solve. #God 
almighty. #Precisely, that was the polite way of saying that. So ,it has been the tradition of the last 
few meetings to start with detectors. #Could I just make an introductory remark, that this is actu-
ally a very well scheduled meeting from my point of view, because I am giving a report at the sci-
ence steering meeting monday and its very nice for me to hear an update from everybody just 
before the meeting and you might think a little bit about what you say in your brief reports 
because you are in some sense feeding me with material good and bad for what I am going to say 
there. #I am feeding you with lot's of material, here it is right here. #Great. #Are you going to the 
meeting? #Yes. This is in fact what I am presenting at the meeting. That and I am making a copy 
for you in case you ??? #And this is the SSC meeting that our quarterly report actually gets to. 
The quarterly reports as of the end of June. #And what I do in these, the schedule has been such 
that my presentation is really halfway through the next quarter. So I more or less hand them the 
old quarterly report which they have already gotten by now anyway and make my presentation 
more timely. #On ccd's, we've gotten recently two wafer runs from Orbit, one of them is on our 
original mass said? which is not the ones we are planning to use possibly for Deimos. But it does 
have a single 2k by 4k ccd on it. That run had amazingly high yield. We had five out of fifteen 
devices are good enough that you'd actually want to put them in instruments, 2k's by 4k's. #Five 
out of? #Fifteen. Three of those are.. we can't see any flaws in them at all. So that was an amazing 
run, then we got the first of the Deimos masks set, which has two of the 2k by 4k. On that wafer 
run, of which we had twenty wafers, there is one ccd which isn't perfect but might be usable. All 
of the rest, well actually, all the other wafers show a charge transfer problem, nothing exactly like 
we have ever seen before and I don't believe its a silicon problem, or something, they didn`t start 
with bad material, the way it behaved, it looks like they did something slightly wrong, or some-
thing. #Last time you told us that there was something funny about the output transistor you were 
trying to figure out whether you could run it at another voltage. #Yeah, that turns out we could. 
Once we understood the problem we were able to adjust our voltages. #This is yet another prob-
lem? #That is a really a non issue at this point.. #Yeah, that's the run that in fact turned out, when 
we first got it we couldn't make any of them image because they had done an implant wrong. That 
is the run that turned out to be spectacularly good, once you get the voltages set righ. #So, I had 
the problem in the wrong run. #That is the run that turned out to be exceptionally good. #I see.  # 
But this new run of the Deimos ccd's, we've tried everything that we could do I think reasonably, 
and we can't make the problem go away. #Do we know what it is? #No, I only know what the 
symptoms are. #What are they exactly? #There are sections of rows that don't transfer charge 
level at low light levels and the placement of these rows is random among these devices and the 
length. It may be a few hundred pixels to many hundreds of pixels. At that simply comes from an 
abrupt end. And we have seen things that look quasi like this before which are shorts between the 
clock phases and those always occur at just one pixel, there's a little short someplace which dis-
rupts the clock amplitudes in that region, and as you get farther and farther away, the clocks get 
closer and closer to normal, so the charge transfer gets better and better. So you see it really bad 
right where the short is and then it sort of gets better in this fan shape in our test of clocking the 
charge back and forth on the device to identify these. But this is, its bad everywhere along the row 
and then it simply stops, and then it`s good. We've tried changing clock voltages, we've tried 
changing rise and fall time, we've tried changing the overhook lap of the three clock phases along 
the - you know one's up before the other one goes down, that sort of thing. And while we make 
small changes we haven't been able to fix the problem. #Was this mask designed exactly the same 
as the 2k by 4k mask design on the other set, except there were just two of them. #No, but the 
imaging area is identical. We changed the bond pad layouts and things for our thinning effort, but 
it's the identical design on the actual imaging. #I think they overetched, or underetched, or some-
thing like that in laying down the different polysilicon layers. #So you think it is a processing 
error. #Yeah. #What happens in practice when this occurrs? #You get another chance at it do you 
have to get more money. #Well I would be a lot more upset if the devices didn't work at all. We 
can still use these devices in all of our thinning experiments and actually prove that we can do 
thinning. Plus they are giving us these runs for twenty thousand dollars apiece. So, I am not going 
to make a big stink about them doing another run if they are shamed into doing another run, that's 
fine. #With regards to the five that were excellent in the other Orbit runs, are they ??? That run 
was paid for by the University of Texas. #So they get all the devices? #Not exactly, no. They 
agreed ahead of time. We are doing two more runs off of our NSF grants and also some money 
from Beijing observatory. So we agreed ahead of time that we would pool all three of these and 
share the risk. But none of the are Deimos or Kera funded. So one good run followed by one 
disaster. #What do your guys say? #They haven't said anything yet. #They know? #I just sent 
them a fax, yesterday, when it was finally decided there wasn't anything we could do about it., 
describing in detail what we had run and I haven't heard anything back yet. We'll find out next 
week. In the fax I said I wanted a meeting next wednesday or thursday to go over it with them.  
There`s two more runs of the new mass set that we have issued a new p.o. for, and they have not 
started those runs yet. Since this was the first run in the mass, we wanted to verify that we didn't 
have some gross defect in the mask or something like that that would screw them all up. That 
doesn't seem to be the case. Unless this does turn out to be an actual mask problem of some kind. 
But we are going to have a meeting to try to decide what to do. They may have seen this sort of 
thing before in other devices and have some idea, or we may want to do some tests that maybe we 
want to do some imaging of the devices, electron microscope imaging and see what the character-
istics of the etching is. To see if they have done something wrong there. I am sure they probably 
don`t have anything in there process records to indicate they did anything wrong. So we'll find 
out. So that is the status of what Orbit has been doing. We got from Site? one of their three side  
??? 2k by 4k devices. But as you know they broke their good one and apparently that's the only 
one they have, or had. Which says something about the ?? Their only good thinned 2k by 4k ?? so 
what they sent us was a front? side eliminated. We tested what we could, it's a nice device, and no 
flaws, of course they wouldn't send us one that had any flaws in it, read noise was less than three 
electrons at our read speed which isn't all that great, which is thirty kilapixels per second. It's 16 
microseconds integration time is the really the key thing. You never know what people are quot-
ing when they give you kilapixels per second. That's our standard, what we always used on the 
Lick control. #Sixteen.  #That's a nice low number and it's got good vertical and parallel and 
serial charge transfer efficiency.  It's a nice device, it's not flat and it's not even uniform. #What 
does that mean? #It's sort of bowed over part of it and then sort of comes back up or is more flat 
on one end so there sort of a wave pattern to it. It's not spherical. As their 2k. #The actual struc-
ture.. #Yeah, the shape of, we measured that the shape of the surface. That is not really compara-
ble to what a thin device might look like of course. Although we have ways down there right now 
of measuring our thin one, but it is non functioning, so we can't do any electrical test, but he is 
measuring the flatness of that device right now. So they at least had the devices, the don't have 
any thin ones. They say they'll send us a thin one that we can test and measure fringing and all 
that kind of stuff, but when I do not know. They are well aware that we didn't really want a thick 
device. #How much do the thick ones cost? We might for the tv camera. #I got the price list, it's 
twenty thousand. #Twenty thousand? #Something like that. #I forgot what photometrics, it might 
be fifty thousand for a big detector for that.  #That was for everything. Their ccd was a 1k by 1k 
ccd. It was ninety thousand for the tv and fifty that was for the chip. #Is that right? #This was the 
24 micron? #Yeah, we can sacrifice that, of course, but still the 2k by 4k, even though it is thick, it 
might be useful for that. #What if no one can ever make a thin device? Or if the thin devices that 
people make fringe like crazy? Are you willing to give up the Qe and just go with a thick device 
to get rid of fringeing? #Maybe. It's very nice to know that you could in a pinch go out and spend 
four times 20k equals 80k and get a back up detector. That's very appealing. #Yeah that's less than 
a HIRES detector. #And then the last item is I gave you a copy of the second thing there, is a 
description of the lincoln 2k by 4k which I got from the Lupino the other day. #Is Lupino coming 
to the meeting? #Yes, he will be at the meeting. #When do you people report? #Like ten or ten 
thirty, something like that. #He said they will sign the contract for the Lincoln effort by the end of 
the month because there is some funds that if they don't use go away. So that will happen, and 
they have already been working on it and this is a description of their design as they have cur-
rently done, they haven't produced the masks yet and things and they are waiting for any com-
ments we might have on this. #Have you studied this? #I have had a chance to read it over a little 
bit, they are doing some slightly odd things with the readout end of the device, but it`s not totally 
beyond the kind of stuff they have done before. There serial register makes a 180 degree bend at 
the end so they could put the output transistor where they wanted it, so that it doesn't stick out 
beyond the end of the device, and they are doing this odd thing where they don't have a transfer 
gate but they have four pixels at the end here that go from fifteen microns down to thirteen 
microns. The whole things sort of funnels down so that they can end up with the serial register a 
little shorter so that it doesn't stick out, its all for making it more bollical? along the sides. I 
haven't seen any devices from Lincoln that have exactly that sort of geometry but they have done 
this sort of tapered pixels and sort of thing before without problems. Hopefully those design fea-
tures won't cause problems on this, but we won't know until they have the devices. They think 
they might actually have the devices by the end of the year, I think they are mostly sitting around 
idle with nothing else to do. So these are the three ccd efforts, our thinning effort is going ahead 
very slowly, but moving ahead nevertheless, and that is what most of the first document I gave 
you deals with. What I have completed in there, this has timeline and everything and budget and 
given the rate at which things have been moving this summer, I don't think we will be able to 
show a working ten ccd before April 1, now.Where I had eight months ago hoped to have some-
thing by the end of this year. But it is just taking way longer than I expected interacting with com-
mercial firms is taking a lot longer than I had hoped and the turn around, getting them to do things 
or having commercial firms mechanically thin the wafers, that is just taking way longer than it 
should. Partly because people have been away on vacation and things like that this summer. Real 
slow, and then the lab Davis is closed down for part of the summer for upgrades and things so we 
couldn't go up there and then Bill was on vacation, one thing after another. Not much has been 
happening and a lot less than.. We are going to make a big push starting, basically now to get this 
going forward. We are going to do some of the work we have been doing at Davis, just bring it 
down here. Even though we hesitated setting up our own clean room up here, fully stocked with 
all our equipment in it and we've had some of it up there in Davis because we are going to be 
kicked out of there is December, so we didn`t see much point in setting everything up just to have 
to tear it all back down again. But the part we are doing now where we are still working on getting 
the best way to bond our ccd wafer to our handle wafer. and that just requires a whole series of 
experiments and going up to Davis every couple of weeks isn't going to cut it. You really have to 
do this constantly all along, and every day of the week to make any progress. #Have we looked 
into having a clean room posibility on campus? #For a short period of time. # Just renting it or 
borrowing it from somebody a lab exchange. #In this building? #Not is this building, specifically 
another building that will be stable over the next year because we don't know how long we ??? 
#What we are doing is in our ccd library is we are not moving out during the remodel.  There was 
originally designated when that area was remodeled a clean room and it has extra filters and 
things on the exhaust. That's the room where Bob Kibrick is now in and we are moving him out, 
that is going to happen next week. So we are going to set that up as our temporary clean area. It is 
not as good as a real clean room, it's not a ??? clean room, but it will be good enough for us to be 
able to do the experiments we need to do and then we can go back to Davis and do the real thing, 
so to speak in the real clean room once we decide what we are going to do. So that is our plan 
now. Plus both Kirk Gilmore and I are going to be going up in October to get training on using 
their facility as well. So far only Bill Brown has done that, which is a limited amount of work that 
can be done in two days.  If we have more than one person we can get a lot more done, when we 
do go up there and there is all the chemical things that we have to up here. #Are there sufficient 
resources to perhaps, buy someone from their group to do some experiments for you? You can 
serve as a liason. #Actually that's.. I mentioned that in here, I have a proposal to them which they 
haven`t... again I sent this to them three months ago, and their use committee hasn`t met all sum-
mer, so they haven`t considered it yet, but I have a proposal that says, if we are funded by Kera to 
actually go ahead and make the devices that we would support a graduate student up there. That 
would enormously increase our efficiency and give us a local representative up there all the time 
who knows when he can get into the lab and ... #I was thinking that that might help your efforts to 
??? $Yeah, definitely. #Now, do you have the money for that person already, or is. #No, the whole 
idea is only if we are funded do we actually go ahead and make these devices, when we do that 
there is not any point is providing support for a graduate student up there now if in three or four 
months the SSC says, thanks for your efforts, we are going to get these devices from Lincoln. 
What is the SSC's time-scale for making that kind of decision? Is that what you are going to dis-
cuss with them at this meeting? #I don`t think they can make that.. I suppose they could simply 
cut off Lincoln, but they have to wait until they have some Lincoln devices, and that was a whole 
year program. So I think it would be the middle of next year.at the earliest, unless by then we have 
shown that we can make devices that are so superior to everyone else that they say, what's the 
point in continuing, but I don't think that is going to happen. #I was just thinking from the stand-
point of your effort, when is the SSC supposed to decide if they`ll fund you to make more devices. 
Well I don't think they will decide that until they have decided about Lincoln. #I have no idea 
how this actually is all going to play out, because its really whether you have the money in Dei-
mos to get the devices. Down the road there it's all foggy to me, exactly who decides what and ... 
I am just trying my best to do my little part here.  #These doys? that you have empowdered?, what 
kind of budget impact does that have? #Almost none. #So you are behind, but you are not in the 
hole.  #Yeah, in fact I spell out how much we spent of the Kera funds.. Kera has provided sixty 
thousand total and I think it was thirty four or five we spent so far. I am not going ask for any 
more money, for a while anyway.  Although they originally told me it was going to cost 150,000 
and I've got a 100,000 with forty thousand from Center for Particle Astrophysics. So I haven't 
been funded that last fifty thousand yet. So that is basically it on thinning, I am not very happy at 
the rate it is moving forward but it.. the other point is even though it is moving ahead slowly, there 
is nothing that we`ve identified that is going to be a serious problem for us to actually finish it suc-
cessfully. Everything is just taking a lot longer. #So the main impact is that part of this delay, you 
won't be able to feedback to Kera news that may or may not help their decision to ??? Is that a fair 
assessment? #Well, the Lincoln effort is going forward..#Regardless of yours? #Oh, yeah. That's 
already... #Your's could have been ?? if you had come back successful thinning would Kera done 
?? #No. Kera has already said "go forward" and they have given their money to the University of 
Hawaii and that whole effort is moving forward. The only thing that the SSC wants to consider 
now, I think, is do we do anything with sight, because obviously they can make devices, they have 
made them already. Their biggest problems are flatness, which they say they are working on, but 
they would like to have 150,000 dollars to do that. But they may be some other people that are 
already funding them, and Gerry is going to try and find out whether that is happening or not.  The 
other issue with the site ones would be fringing, how badly they fringe? #I think I would want to 
know before the SSC meeting, I think it is time for us to reassess what happens to Deimos if 
detectors are delayed. So, after this meeting perhaps we can look at the schedule. This afternoon. 
#The computers are running. #If that's impossible then it's impossible, but it is something to keep 
in mind. #I've got a little thing to recheck that. #Right, Ok? [End of Tape]

Tape two

#... was five to seven minutes per item, from here on out. Cameras, couplant and optical tools. I'm 
not sure if very much can be said about the cameras at this point, other than I know Sandy has 
some conversations, they all indicate that our glass order is at least likely to appear in November, 
there is nothing saying that it is not going to at this point. By far during the last week or two, the 
most effort has been going toward the couplant experiments. And I sent out a email, at least to 
some, to describe what I thought was going on, there is actually a fair amount going on directed 
by various people, which indicates how much effort we are putting in to getting this problem 
solved. And at three o'clock we are going to have a subsequent discussion of that. I am not too 
sure how much more needs to be said. #Well, I have a comment which is that what  and I did 
where we stuck in grease and ?? what happened may be a little misleading because one thing cin-
ematics? doesn't tell you is whether or not any light actually made it through the camera. It will 
not tell you if there were total internal reflections.  #Yeah, but there weren't. #How would you 
know? #How could there be? The index of refraction is so similar.  #Well, I don't know. Also ?? 
tell you how much reflection there was at the boundaries of the grease ?? If that`s a problem, I 
don't even know if it is. #I don't think its a problem, Brian. I mean the indices of refraction for 
these various components are so similar, that light is pretty much going to go through almost 
without even noticing. I really don't think that is a problem. #Ok. # ??? three o'clock meeting. 
#Yeah, why don't you sit in? #I've got things that I had to do last week. #?? won't be ready by 
three o'clock! #Only Mongo has to be out. #Optical tools: David is still designing these and Carol 
was drawing them a while ago but I haven't seen any new ones in. And we have ordered materials 
for that. #That was record! #Item three? I'll just move along. Collimation alignment plan. Sep-
tember 20th, which is coming up amazingly quickly I geuss that is next thursday. We are planning 
an all day meeting in 143 to discuss that. Included in that will be Jack and Eric James, Sandy, Har-
lan, Brian, ?? who else Sandy? #What? #Our meeting on..#Bill Brown?..# next wednesday, I think 
it is. #Oh, the alignment meeting, I'm sorry. #We've moved on, #Good. #The object of that meet-
ing will be to have at least the basis for an alignment plan for Deimos going in to detailed design 
that Jack's been working on and the error budget. #This is wednesday? #September 20th, what-
ever that is. #It was at one point going to be a two day, but now it is a one day. #One day, and 
Brian, are you scheduled to come to that, that was... #First I've heard. #I'm surprised that Harlan 
didn't tell you about it. #I'm not. #You are extremely welcome, I think it would be good, but its 
going to be kind of an all day marathon, walking all the way through from start to finish, if we can 
get there. #Why don`t you give me a mail message, telling me when and where and why. # I can 
tell you that, if that is what you are looking for. #I'm sorry that you didn't get that. # That is the 
only way that I will ever remember anyway, I tend to forget these things. I'll make an effort. 
#Optical tooling: what is the status of that? #We were getting a fair number of them from Dave 
Hilyard a month or two ago, but his rate of pushing them out has dropped off, so we haven't seen 
any for a while. The ones that we have drawn we have ordered the materials for. In fact, David 
may have put in enough material for all of them. #Is that because he is busy with other things? #I 
think so, he may be coming to the end of them too. #Has he been doing other things for Deimos? 
#Mostly he has been doing profilometer work. #Ok. #That is sort of the key activity over there. 
#?????? #David is not too involved in the couplant, but he is heavily involved in the profilometer 
work and there is fair number of experiments to get done in any time period.  The alignment colli-
mation plan meeting will be interesting to people who want to learn how optically this instrument 
works, cause that is basically what we are going to do, is walk through in a lot of detail how this 
thing works and how we might possibly get it aligned. #Are you coming to this meeting. #Yeah. 
#Good. #What's the interfacing software today, is the taken care of via a subgroup, or is this 
something that is going to be integrated with the software. #I don't see that there is any impact at 
the moment because we don't even have a plan and we should be alert to that as we go through 
and if there is then.. I sort of forsee that this plan is going to through some iterations. So, we will 
involve you at the appropriate time. #Is Kibrick going to this meeting. I don't think so, no. #What 
I really hope to end up with is a foundation for a plan that will then develop as we move through. 
#This is like an initial... #This is our first cut. #It's a detailed review... #We're having a detailed 
review in November, but this is prep. #We are going to assume that there is something out there 
for image analysis of the final focal point, like we had with HIRES. #Do you have all that soft-
ware? #No. We are just assuming that will be available in four years. #You are talking about 
something that we'll see an image on the other side of the camera optics? #Yeah, then what we did 
with Steve Vode and Michael Keane wrote this stuff that you just have a matrix of focus things 
and you can just tip and the tilt the ccd to improve things and he just said, "oh, go turn that screw 
a quarter or a revolution.  #Hi Bob. # I wondered if you would be able to join us today. #Well I 
guess if there are any software requirements that require more software effort, people like Bob 
should know or probably at least should be informed if they are going to have to do something on 
short notice. #Good point. Right. #Bob, this is for the collimation alignment plan. This is an all 
day marathon next wednesday that we are not required to go to. If there are software requirements 
for the plan.. #then we will let you know. #I.e. image analysis, that sort of thing. #So this is, and 
there will be. #Yes but maybe at pan? so that is what we will need to assess. #Ok, the fourth item 
on the agenda is Deimos model. We made end up in fact having two class of model, everybody 
knows I think we have a full scale mock-up that was actually put together for the PDR and we are 
continuing to use. we will mount the collimator cell and its concrete collimator blank in this full 
scale mock up.  Last week Sandy brought up the idea of building something like a quarter size 
model and we are starting to develop that plan right now.  #My motivation for this was a fund 
raising model. #A quarter was going to be how big? #Well something that would fit in the back 
seat of a car. Is that arbitrary? #Yes, it's arbitrary, it could be a fifth size, but I don't want to get 
much smaller than that because then parts become a bit fidl?  #Dave decided on hearing this that it 
might actually help people in design of the instrument and so on to have this model to work with 
so we kill two birds with one stone. #Especially putting together the structure, our full scale mock 
up is not an exact rendition of what the structure is now turning out to be. But the quarter scale 
model we can actually... #Can it be made fairly robust to movement, because you might need it 
for SSC meetings or we might need it for.. #We are planning to build it out of aluminum, at least I 
am. #Not too heavy. #We should design it with PR in mind too, it should open up in the appropri-
ate way, actually we were thinking as show and tell that it would be kind of neat to have a little 
laser pen ray that could slip into a little attachment at the front and then the laser beam could go in 
and bounce off various.  People could see where the light goes... Which you don't need but would 
be kind of slick. #We are just starting to develop this idea. It's been passed on to Carol as a matter 
or fact. She has had time with the computer working to deal with this at all, so .. #We're seeing 
this as something you want to have after the CDR, we are not going to concentrated on it now. 
#No, and I can imagine that you wouldn't... #Ok. Deimos structure, the only thing that has hap-
pened, Eric is starting back and is working on the structure. It is sort of one of these things where 
he did a bit on everything to determine what the structure had to look like and he has come back 
now to the structure and started working on it. One of the things we are working on is the track 
system to handle Deimos when it goes into the storage position. As most people know I think, 
NIRSPEC is going to share the right naysmyth platform with us occasionally which means that 
we have to put in a track system identical to that on the AO ?? right now what we are thinking is 
that in fact what we'll use is the track system that`s used to load the cast modules, that way NIR-
SPEC would be able to move onto the mezzazine on one of the existing trackage storage spots, 
and then move both on to our platform and onto their platform. So, that is as far as that has been 
developed. To use that we would have to put some sort of turntable on the Deimos platform and 
Eric thinks that can be very easily done. #I think that is a very neat idea. How much of this has 
been run past NIRSPEC, have they seen this at all? #Not at all, I sent an email off to Ian last night, 
and I don't know whether it went out even. I sent it out at four o'clock and it was a debate whether 
it made it out. #What is the budget impact of this requirement. #None, we always had to move, 
now we now approximately who we are going to share the platform with, so in a way there are 
some advantages to this. We are no longer going to fool ourselves that we are going to be the only 
resident on this platform and we have to deal with this. #Is there any access problem to Deimos 
when NIRSPEC is mounted. #We don't think so, NIRSPEC is a fairly compact system as far as 
we know right now. They just went through their PDR not very long ago and their dimensions are 
not well developed at this time. #Will we be able to run in their attracted? position. #Everything. 
#Are you going to use a cable takeup as you move this away, or are you going to have separate 
cabling, or is it just going to scoot along as it.. #I am hoping the cabling will be long enough, 
#Well we haven't made any cables yet and they are easy to make. #Its a requirement. #Well, what 
I am thinking is if your in this position and you start moving it and you've got the possibility of 
running over a cable with a heavy instrument, that type thing. Hopefully we will design it so that 
it can't run over our cables.  Maybe some cables bring something that keeps it away, #Or maybe it 
goes up overhead and drops down and drops down so that you swing underneath it. #One of the 
advantages again of dealing with it now and knowing of NIRSPEC is going to be our platform ?? 
I might add that they are not wildly enthusiastic about this, they wanted to stay on the AO plat-
form. #What sort of positioning review alivia?? requirements are there in terms of getting soft and 
deck, in terms of calibration of pointing origins of this. #Between two and five thousand seven 
inch? It should be fairly benign. #What we're thinking is that Deimos will run on its tracks and 
come up to a kinematic style mount and it will lift up and set down onto it. So the tracking system 
is not used to define the instrument except when it is in the storage position, and then we don't 
really care to more than an inch I guess, where it is. When it goes into the user position, telescope 
position, then it's going to sit on kinematic style mounts.  #I assume in this region that there's no 
large temperature changes from the other position, it's normal position. #You mean from stove to 
reel, no, its a few feet on a platform. #Hear you can look at this picture. #I'd like to hear some 
more about other aspects of the structure because I would like to have some things to say. #Ok, so 
tell me something good. #As I said, what Eric was doing was sort of working his way through the 
instrument. and he had done some work on the camera lense cell back as far as the focus to deter-
mine its placement and primarily how it would interact with the structure and now we are starting 
to come back to dealing with the structure itself. So the tube, the drive disk, that sort of thing. 
What we would like to do is next april start to fabricate this. It's sort of time that we start to pick 
this back up again.  There was a fair amount of preliminary work that had to be done in order to 
devine the structure well enough. I think we are just about at that position. #Everything is being 
designed with two sides .. #Absolutely. End of the year is when we are going to have to decide 
how we are going to handle one versus two, but until that point we are simply assuming that we 
are going to build two. #Sandy, do you even want to discuss the possibility of three a la ?? 
#Three? I thought it was two, one of a different sort. #Well its not settled, so I was wondering 
whether any discussion. #We don't glass for three visual cameras. #Well I am not sure I keyed 
anything you wanted to say there, #Are there drawings that I can take with me, one or two, to 
illustrate changes, improvements, differences from where we were on this subject of structure 
three months ago? #I don't think we.. #You mean that aren't in the quarterly report? #Yes. #I don't 
think so. #I don't think there is anything in the quarterly report on this subject by way of a draw-
ing. #It hasn't changed in substance for a while, it's been changing in detail: the interaction of the 
slitmask handler, the tent mirror required more cut out on the drive desk. One of our main activi-
ties. #Were there specific milestones that had to be reached? #No.  #We filed off a report to Frank, 
of our status. #That is good, I should look in those Melsheimer reports. #The full size tent mirror 
model that is being installed into the full size mock up instruments. #Do we have pictures, any 
pictures. Did you take pictures? #I have pictures of the tent mirror. #Why don't we talk after the 
meeting. #Now when are you going to leave, timing may be important here. #Yeah. #I have a 
stack of photographs here. #You do? #You're leaving early monday morning? #Yes and I won't be 
here monday morning so I need to get anything from you this afternoon. #Ok. #So, anyway, the 
details have matured to the point where we can start dealing with an actual design of the structure 
and fairly quickly we will actually get Carol starting to work on that, which means we will actu-
ally get detailed drawings. Collimator: two things. One is the mirror blank has gone to Kodak, it is 
in good shape. Kodak sent us a note to say that there is no defects of any kind. Kodak is saying 
that they'll be finished with it before September 30th and will ship. Kodak is generating the mir-
ror blank and will put a flat on it and put the hole in it. We actually bought a small piece of zero-
dur?? to fit in that hole, once it returns to us so that we can work on it. The mirror cell is in 
fabrication and looks very nice. Its the first actual major complete item that is going to be fabri-
cated for the spectrograph and it should be done fairly soon.  #And there is a concrete collimator 
mirror? #That's right. # And it will go into that cell. It will be hard to polish.  #Its already done. 
#And that will be to test the support system in a rotating fixture. #I guess we could splash some 
black paint or silver paint over that so that we put it in the model and .. #Silver paint? #Sure. 
#Something other than concrete. Slitmask, slitmask cutter and slitmask handler: Jack do you want 
to say something about the handler? #Nothing has happened in a month, unfortunately on the slit-
mask handler, we have had some problems with getting purchase orders through. We have a full 
size mock up on the tent? position caterpiller desing and I think that is in the quarterly report and 
Frank's.  We don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that but we need to make some 
changes to stiffen it, its pretty flimsy. That was the first cut ?? expensive best cast, we are going 
have to start adding parts to it. #What is flimsy about it? #Well, it works fine when the hands are 
moving this way, but as soon as you rotate the whole instrument so that they are moving this way, 
the chain doen not have enough lateral stiffness to keep it tension. #So this was the chain tension 
problem that you were talking about. # I am getting some chain that actually has two strands of 
links so there's is four rows of links with a pin connecting them all. And that has to be made up by 
somebody in Modesto, we cannot do that here., were at the mercy of.. #Is this the delayed pur-
chase order? #Yes. #It is now ordered. #One of the other things was that the single conveyor link 
on the chain was not stiff enough to maintain the holsters where we wanted them, so we are going 
to use a four bar linkage and pick up two links with some piano hingeing in between. And at least 
this little mock up that I've made is much stiffer. All of this is slitmask handler in the way of a 
holster device. We have not worked on how to get the slitmask in and out of that device, and 
remember the reason for designing this now is to find out where the drive disk goes. If we need 
more room we have to move the drive disk and that impacts on the structure, so we are nailing 
down the structure by doing this now. #How concerned are we about burs and treads of metal as 
these slitmasks slide in and out of their holsters. #Well I need some guides so that we don't gener-
ate burs and stuff like that, we are very concerned about it. We don't want to get any dirt on the 
slits. #We will provide some easy way to move them in and out. #You don't think that is a con-
cern? #Well, not until we have detailed design. #It's an item, but its not a horrible thing. #No, I 
can't tell you exactly what would move in the past that doesn't generate parts. Probably look 
around at Mt. Hamilton and find some successful design. #Generally if we are generating burs 
there is something clear wrong, but it won't last long. Ok and the slitmask cutter. I actually wrote 
the CDR portion of the report and have a draft out. So Eric and Jeff and Jack have that and can fix 
some of my misconceptions about that. To me after writing it, a fairly strong rational to buy and 
NC machine, similar to use in industry to cut all manner of parts. It means a numeric control. 
#Yeah, we have been cutting the LRIS masks some number of .. #We have an old clugy? one this 
would be a presumably much better up to date modern one. #Even with our old clugy one, we are 
hitting accurracies that are better than any we have measured by anyone else in the laser cut, 
including canada france. #Is that right. #Canada France you have four times better, Low res we 
are ten times better, the quality of the slit.  #We are talking about is edge roughness. #We don't 
know anything yet about position. #Arnold made some tests on that and... he's really wonderful... 
[lots of praise for Arnold] its so close and he is always ready to perform additional tests if we 
require them. #Good absolute relative?? #We have not given him data to compare our dimensions 
versus his dimensions, his findings but what he was able to do was measure and repeatedly come 
back to the same position on the slits and also check the roughness of the action. #Is there a report 
written here, is there something written down about the numbers. #Arnold came very happily ??? 
#I think I will put it in my report. #I think we need to document this somehow: what was done and 
what were some of the numbers. #How close is it to the ?? is already seated? #Within a micron or 
so of the specs. The spec was about four microns for edge roughness and we were thinking about 
five or six.. #And even that though was a bit soft, anyway. #And it was ten microns relative from 
one side to another. #We're getting two tenths. #Of a micron? #Of a thousandth. #That's five, so 
we are there. #Budget wise we are really there. #This is with the old machine. #A new NC 
machine with just about everything we could think to put on it is about fifty thousand. #I still 
think we can ??? # What we had socked for the laser cutter was 164,000. #This was part of the 
savings we discussed last quarter, #Right. #So it's looking very encouraging. #The reason why 
you say it's going to help ??? #No, I don't want to send ours to ??? #It can make one mask in one 
cut, you don`t have to move the mask over. #You can find that you can cut more than one mask 
with one cutter. #Like two or something like that? #Even more, right now we cut about six contin-
uously with one cutter. #We just had to test it right now and the thing is cutting and cutting and its 
doing beautifully. #What kind of stock are we using? #This is for ten thousands. #We used fifteen, 
ten and five. and Jeff is recutting now at ten thousandths ??? I guess he is done. ?? taking this all 
down. #What is your favorite number right now? #Ten, the five thousandths crinkles, in fact the 
one that we have is got a little crinkle in it now. #As we cut it or  it's just fragile. #Just handling. I 
think it was fine when it was cut but coming off the machine I think it crinkled. #How much is 
each ??,  I'm curious. #Fifteen dollars. #The other thing over the lasers is that we can use any 
material that we want practically, not stainless. And they are much faster, cutting was ..I think Jeff 
knows how long it takes to cut, an hour. #Fifteen minutes. #We can think about making sixteen of 
them in a day then. #Should we decide on stainless, you know that time would be increased, you 
cannot cut Stainless as fast as you can cut aluminum. Also the cutter life, the tool life will be 
shorter. #But we're open, we can do aluminum, we can do stainless, whatever. How are we with 
regard to putting id's on these masks so that visually you look at a mask you can see them. #Their 
is some thought we may want to anodize these things and what I am thinking is .. #I think there is 
more than some thought. #Ok, we probably want to anodize the blank uncut mask and sit down a 
barcode on each and every one of our blanks and then we simply put the thing into the cutter, read 
the barcode on it, and cut it. #Spit that information back out, to cross check. #For that matter, it 
could be scanned as it goes in and out of your.. #We are doing that. #We are thinking that we will 
load these things into Deimos and then Deimos will automatically go and scan all these barcodes. 
#Did you ever find out the cost of a bar code reader. #No, I haven't done that. #I've got a whole 
file of stuff on that. #Oh, good. #Do you know roughly how much a barcode reader is. #A hun-
dred. #Moving beam, you probably can get in the two to three hundreds. #That's with all the elec-
tronics and everything? [End of Tape]

Tape three.

#... five to six hundred #Oh, good. #, maybe less. I have not looked at them for a few years. #Does 
that information need to be sent down the network to the computers? #Yes., it does. #Most of 
them are RS 232 interface devices and we can stick them on another port in the terminal server. 
#Except we are running out of ports. #That's a problem. #Do we need to do an inventory? #We 
may need to go to a larger.. #They have a ??? and its physically about the same size, these are not 
big units. They are light. #So we should add this to the software ??? And we will task those auto-
matic check. #Write to a data file. #Slitmasks: We now have.. I am going to say five, I think that is 
how many we have. Deimos styled masks, with slits cut in them, that were cut for demonstration 
purposes. #Oh, I should take some with me. #Ok. #What we have are the last run ??? [lots of 
speaking all at once] ... The Deimos guys. and they are cut. #I have been trying for about six 
months to get a demo slitmask cut one way or the other, Jeff cut a bunch up for me in one day.. 
#Two is good. #If we were going to cut them up with a laser, the cheapest we could get is about 
three thousand something per mask to cut them, so this is a huge savings. #We should go into 
business! sell them for two thousand. #We will be using the ten thousands ones for the ones that 
were cut in duplicate, so that you will probably not get those ones, because those are the ones that 
are going to go to arnold to check repeatability and that sort of thing. #Ok, #gratings and grating 
handler.. #Question? #Sir. #I am cutting these things depending upon the particular material and is 
there at all an issue of the temperature that you cut them the mask at versus the temperature that 
you use the mask at? #Yes, that is part of the software. #I calculated that there is a half a thousand 
difference likely to occur, so. #It actually depends whether or not we have a two beam instrument 
or a one. #There is a thing called an in use temperature, and there is a manufacture temperature. 
#gratinggrating, gratinggrating handlers. Not much has happened, in fact nothing since the last 
meeting. Except there is an inventory of first line gratings, and there has been a rfq sent to Milton 
Roy.. request for quotation has not been sent to Milton Roy?#It hasn't been done yet, as far as our 
wednesday meeting. #No. #Why is that? #The business office is backed up. #Basically they can 
do about five to six orders a day and they see about ten, so, they have a problem that they are try-
ing to fix.  #Ten orders a day! #Its from us. #Well then there has been no progress, because I was 
going to say except for that. #Ok, #We still have our ?? position linear slide. One of them is a mir-
ror, three of them are gratings, two of those can be larger. And that is where we stand. #And I still 
have an open action item really, I haven't really sat down and reviewed the whole grating situa-
tion, the maximum tilt ranges and all that sort of stuff so you and I have an action item there. 
#Good, I don't have a drawing of them for you to review either yet. #You were going to get me 
that. #I read the error budget though. #Good. # I should have put the error budget on the agenda. 
#Each of these three positions has a motor, and then the slide itself has a motor, so this is the way 
that we are going. This is the report last month. #Just letting you know that Joe Miller is going to 
be visiting the people at Livermore, this group that has been discovered to do gratings and it looks 
like I won't be able to go but there's going to be a visit a week from Monday, They may be an 
alternative to Milton Roy. #And that would be to save money? #Yeah. And these may be better 
gratings. #I think the 1200 line gratings especially may be better, if we were just buying 600 line 
gratings, the MR gratings are fine. But there 1200 line grating is a very old ruling and we could 
get better quality.. #You contacted two other grating ruling houses and we have the literature on 
that, I have to put together the ?? #Electronics? Do you want to start? #Sure, I think we are about 
in the same position of pretty much ???? I've mentioned that we completed last month is about the 
same, today, which is about 80 to 90 percent, mostly a lot of the stuff was copied from existing 
systems. That is really where we stand at this point. #One thing we have done, since our last meet-
ing is that we have designed a hand control paddle, that is what we plan to build up for controlling 
various stages, and we will have one of these ready for the PDR if the orders get done soon 
enough. #Why don't you think about that? #That is local control, right? #It's mostly just for show 
and tell, #Just for David and others, there is a philosophical difference between the way HIRES 
local control works and the way that Deimos local control is going to work, what we are going to 
do on Deimos is plug in a hand set to the controller and dial in which of the functions you want to 
operate and then you will be able to operate locally. You won't actually get in next to the item that 
you are controlling. On HIRES I understand you actually have to be next to the item and you push 
a button, that is the way it goes. This is the style that is used for Mos, the control boxes. So you 
have to know results. #Well this is the first I have seen of this particular drawing and I'd like to get 
a copy of that .. #Deanne, can you xerox six copies of that? #Sure. #Also, what we did with 
HIRES, if you wanted to work near something their was a local off button, if you are going to 
crawl around underneath a cell that is going to move, you hit the off button and you are pretty sure 
its not going move. So the local control is used for that. and we will have something similar to 
that, won't we. #What, an off button? #Be able to turn whatever you are working on off. #Our 
idea is that we will have a local terminal right there and you will be able to bring the instrument 
up into local mode. #I think there is another issue here if you want to be absolutely concerned that 
it is not going to move on you. You might want to not take the whole instrument down to be able 
to safely disable a particular stage. So, I don`t know physically in terms of placement, that if you 
had a little panel that had separate on/off switches for the servo amp power for each stage, you 
could do that and essentially isolate that particular stage without impacting anywhere else on the 
instrument. I do not know if that is possible. #Well, you just have to put it in line with the power 
to the motor itself. Each amp supplied goes for four motors, so you have to do it individually at 
each motor, that would be quite doable. That is a separate issue from local control, what you 
really want is a local disable. #Is there documentation on this .. what you guys have in mind. #It's 
being written up for the design review, but its not in existence right now. #Actually I have updated 
the final and have a more updated version than Jeff has. #We will get a copy some time? #Abso-
lutely, you will get a copy. #There is no conflict I assume with the software that is bypassed alto-
gether or can one send two commands simultaneously and then they would be ... #We are 
planning to have it work the same as Mos, in which case once it goes into local mode you have to 
do something to get it out. #I see. #Is this a button that you push and it.. #No, this is a lever switch 
, like the old cast spectrograph, where you have the numbers would go by one at a time with the 
lever that only went up and down. And remember you used to set the gratings, #Oh, yeah!. #It's 
called a lever switch, as opposed to a thumb switch. But there would be two of those of course, 
and there's a mode which i have to research a little bit more because I have to find out what Terry 
had in mind for the mode. But this is going to be in a fairly hefty, hand-held unit, the box is, we 
ordered one and we will build it up for the CDR running the HIRES rotator, so you see how it 
functions at that point. #These are sort of cryptic, opened lock, hatched slitmasks. #These are 
LED's. There's a slitmask button which is a black one in the center and then there will be LED's 
to tell you whether the slitmask or locked or unlocked and again hatch up and close and then for-
ward and reverse buttons. The manual and the red is an LED and this is just a toggle switch on the 
bottom to flip from auto to manual. I think maybe you should use a different symbol for LED ver-
sus pushbutton. #This is actually an autocad drawing for Jeff to cut it out and do the engraving its 
just the diameter of the hole that has to be cut and it just happens to be the same size for each of 
them. #Ok. #Have you put everything on this list Barry? #For the final instrument, of course, there 
will be a second one, you know there's two gallo motor controllers and these are the functions for 
the first controller and then functions for the second controller will be on the separate paddle. 
#The instrument rotation lever could be on either one of them. # The instrument rotation will be 
on a paddle that is in the vault, or that comes from the vault, not necessarily in the vault. #Yes, 
cause that comes from a controller that is outside of the instrument. See these things cable out to 
their digital input bits right on the controller and that is what this cable will go into. So since the 
rotator control is in the vault, its paddle will have to go with that controller. #So, in fact there will 
be three., #Yeah. #I am a little concerned that all of the functions that we need are not here. Some 
of the functions that we see are not real and so I think we better have a little review of exactly 
what these functions are and I am not positive that eight positions is enough. #Each paddle is 
capable of running eight motors, so eight positions is what you get per controller. And each con-
troller has its own paddle. So there will be a second paddle that has the grating load the grating 
tilts, for each of the four, the ccd focus, and those I have not yet made the second drawing for and 
just need to change the text on it and then, but we just wanted to get one built so Jeff could cut it 
out. #Maybe we need to think about whether or not we want the flexure control functions in here 
as well. #It would not be on these paddles. #Ok, fine. #The other thing I think we want to think 
about carefully about is which how you group motors with controllers because then that impacts 
how these things.. You don't want to be in a position where you have two have stages that you are 
trying to work on and having to hold two paddles. I forsee these paddles as sort of sitting is a 
spring loaded thing on the instrument, and you only take them out of the spring loaded thing when 
you know the instrument has rotated around underneath or something like that. #I am just saying I 
think we should give some careful attention to which grouping.. if we are going to break things up 
in two groups of eight, then they should be logically grouped according to the user. #Terry gave 
some thgought to that, but your right, the astronomers may have a different idea of how they want 
it. #Can we give somebody an action item to list all of these functions, and then we will just have.. 
#I think they are already listed. #But like, x slitmask and y slitmask, what's that? #Ok, that's how 
Terry had designated the motions of the slitmask, I guess the slitmask thing goes in one direction 
to rotate in the slitmask and then the y direction is to move it into the beam. #Oh, it's like inserta-
tion.. #Yeah, these are just the names that Terry came up with. #And slitmirror, I have no idea 
what that means. #That would probably be from the tv ... ?? #Maybe we should talk about this 
some more. #Yeah, I think this needs some more.. #I guess I was under the impression that this 
was an initial one that we were going to do just for the CDR, but it sounds like we should have 
some sort of get together on this. #I think so. #Don't you sometimes do everything and then have 
a little piece of cardboard you put in later with the printing on it. #When you decide what the 
switches are for. #I have always liked that method of doing things but I don't know, we have not 
done that here. #I think that would be a very good idea while we are sort of in the testing phase, 
why don't we make it flexible? # Fine, until the proper names evolve. #There is always dymo 
labels. #Actually making up one of these faces is probably not going to take a lot of NC time, 
though. #No, in fact Jeff is going to cut me out on just to start.  # So the main thing we have to 
verify is that sixteen positions is in fact all we need. #Well, its a function of how many motor axes 
you have to control, if you add more devices then you will another controller and another paddle 
to go with it. #Well, actually, with this mode position switch up here that is capable of eight posi-
tion, you could use it to multiplex and get sixty four if you wanted. #I don't think you make some-
thing like this that complicated because people at the Mauna Kea summit, particularly when you 
are up on the platform, shouldn't have to think that hard. #One or the other will be tough. #One 
last thing that I wanted to mention under electronics: in view of our ordering process, do we need 
to start ordering some of Galil and limit switches and that type of thing. #Really we are not sup-
posed to start ordering things until after the CDR. #Do you find yourself with time on your hands? 
#Do I? #Yes. #Yes. Speaking for electronics shop at this point, yes. #You could start putting 
together the ?? Writing them up and submitting them. #Just don't date them. #But we'd be talking 
to the business office. We are going on at a rate now that will somewhere between double and go 
by a factor of ten different come december. They have hired a new person, they are very aware of 
what is going to happen and the consequences if they do not have people. #How do you justify 
making something like the collimator, but not be able something like limit switches. #The colli-
mator, we needed to make that in order to have the time in the optical shop to build the camera 
elements. So we needed to build that now in order to get it through. #So in special cases you can 
purchase things prior to the CDR. #Yeah, since we ordered the collimator, or we are going to 
make the collimator, we want to make the cell so that we can test it. #Do you think it is prudent to 
maybe have a ?? discussion of the fund of some limit of maybe five thousand dollars before CDR 
so that the little things .. #It's not a matter, that's really not the point, mine was more the order 
process problem, even if we got all this stuff in today we don't have any hardware to put it on and 
do that type thing. We do have a set of the needed components for testing things and that type 
things, its not a need. #It's my hope that by december or early in the year, we are submit an order 
and that week it will get placed. #Right now it is about a month, and one week to make it to the 
business .. #If you let Jessica order, you can get the part the next day. #There are different paths 
through, so we are trying the right one right now and we have a little time to do it, not many 
months but we've got a little time. #Until then we can bring our tv's and vcr's in the electronics 
shop? #Or hire Jessica. #We notice that everybody good winds up over in Engineering. #Well,its a 
nice place to work. There's a little magnet over there. #So we have covered electronics? #I have. 
#Software effort, software PDR. #I didn't do that.. #My major effort in this area was to get the 
chapter outline for the software report for the CDR completed and sent that out to review at the 
beginning of this week. My schedule currently looks like I will be getting to actual writing of that 
chapter beginning the first week in October. #Wonderful. #I will be, I'm sure, coming to you and 
Sandy and whoever else to nail down specifications. #Did you mail to David? # I probably did not 
copy you on the chapter outline. #Remember you should be mailing to Drew, me and David. #I 
did copy you and I only got one of the two Davids. #I haven't seen that. #Ok. This is sort of soft-
ware sort of hardware, probably more electronics. A lot of the pieces that we will be using in Dei-
mos actually got put to use ?? observing the last three nights in particular, the 1500 series Galil 
controller, at least the encoder interfaces on that, were used day and night the last three days. 
#Where? #At the one meter, using the identical teledyne gurley encoders that we will be using in 
Deimos. We actually mounted a set of these directly to the one meter telescope and interfaced 
them to the 1500 series Galil controller and used this for some pointing tests.  And we learned 
some valuable lessons in terms of noise susceptability grounding, shielding issues that we will 
want to look at carefully for Deimos. The Deimos terminal server that we had purchased, we're 
testing the evaluation, this is the unit from Lantronics that takes four seriel ports and multiplexes 
them onto ethernet, we also used at the forty inch, and pumped data through continuously for sev-
enty two hours and nary a hiccup, it came up totally trouble free. That was probably the most. 
#We paid for one, didn't we? #That belongs to Deimos. #Who are you charging for all of this 
work? #This is mostly tiltmeter and we were also doing some work in support of the laser guide 
star. #Is this all free? #Deimos labor did not get charged for a cent for any of this. #Do you intend 
to put this into some written form. #Yes. #So it would be available to us. #Right. #And you will 
write down Gurley instead of Teledyne Gurley. #I'm sorry, Gurley. #None of us can remember 
that. #Too many years of calling them that. What else? I was hoping that Steve Allen would be 
here at this meeting and would bring you up to date on his activities. #You could run and go grab 
him out of his office really quick. #The other thing in that vein that's been going on in the last 
week is that we ran the HIRES image rotator in the cold vault, whatever it is. #The icebox. #The 
big refrigerator. At 27 fahrenheit with the same controllers, same #terminal server. #Did the ter-
minal server ever get.. #No, Bob had it. #Same encoder, same controller. #The encoder was the 
one that I was truly worried about. #So, we've taken this encoder now down to -5 centigrade. 
#Now this encoder, we are going to use for what? #Grating and instrument position.  #We can 
possibly come back to software at the tailend, Steve might be able to, he's in the midst of trying to 
peice everyone's mail back together.#Why, actually we don't really need Steve, I think, because 
we sort of vaguely know some of what he`s been doing, he's probably been doing more than what 
we know. #A fair amount of work has been done on prototyping of the user interfaces using 
TCLPK and I think he has some iterations to review. #Why don't you give a report on what you 
have been doing. #Steve and Sandy and I have been working on the graphical user ?codes and 
instrument control and I feel like we are making good progress in terms of the instrument control 
itself then we have a ccd control to discuss which we are about to start where the ?? #I think we 
have a very slick philosophy for our instrument control window that is better than the Low res 
window which I regard as sort of a patchwork. This function looked like this and that function 
looked like that and so on. We're looking to a more streamlined repetitive format where grating is 
here, focus is here, hatch is here and so on. Everything is going to look the same and when you 
indicate that you want to set it it's red and when it is set it is tan, so you look for them all to tan 
and when they are all tan you know that you are ready to observe, etc. So that is the idea, and then 
in addition to this control panel which will be very homogeneous and easy to read we hope their 
will be a cartoon up there in the HIRES, Low res style for those people who like to look at such 
things, which actually don`t include either one of us. #And scripts will be easier too to implement 
them, as well. #He had a very clever idea for having a script button, setting a script will be like 
calling out a focus and so. #You can read off whatever has been set as a script name. #Basically 
that's it. You use the control panel to set the set up that you want and then you name it something 
else. #There are some sketches. #I think you have an action item from today to go off and draw 
something as we are going along. #I should be included the loop for things ??? because I agreed to 
take on a little more of that in part by dropping off.. #Before you were kind of insulated. #I was 
just there I didn't think about meetings of sdf once a month, I don't even know where I am sup-
posed to send reports or anything. #Do you mind getting too much information? #No, because I 
can just dump whatever I don't need. Maybe I need to be informed to that I can work with Bob 
and Drew and Sandy and Steve. So anything to do with software, #Anything that might have to do 
with software? #Right. #Good, thanks. #When is the software PDR? #We are shooting for January 
15th. #January 15th. #Are we calling this a PDR? #Yes, we are having a software review, so its a 
PDR. #I finding that things that PDR, CDR kind of review. In HIRES, towards the end we just 
starting calling them Reviews: review one, review two... I have been strongly think of dropping 
the C and the P, because what they imply. #Because really we are getting things that are mixed. 
#So we just call it the first review. #I think that might be a really good idea. #I disagree.  The plan 
steering committee thinks in terms of PDR and CDR. Stick to the name and do what you want. 
#Ok, the problem being that particulary the military world and very strict definition of these 
things. #Technically CERT does too. They have a checklist of all the items for PDR's and CDR's. 
#We never said that we would follow it in a strict sense. We have always said that we are doing 
design a year after we went through second review, which we call Critical review. #I think the 
experience with these instruments is that there is always a need, at least within the ? team. Soft-
ware things are always evolving, not only in terms of available resources... #The real milestone 
that you go over with the CDR or the second is the permission to spend large dollar amounts, and 
that's what we will be looking for. #That's our practical outcome, but what can we spend when 
this is done. That's I like a little bit of buffer, the things we explored .  #We don`t have a problem 
with that. #Five year time scale with software is ridiculous. [End of Tape]

Tape four.

#Ok, a little imaginative budgeting was done. I had on a grant, $35,000 to spend for a computer, 
and that was a large enough amount of money, that the idea occured to me sort of at the last 
minute that maybe it would be a good idea to share costs with Deimos and buy a bigger CPU with 
more slots and more memory capacity, more than I could afford on my grant, and then charge a 
little bit to Deimos. And then Deimos could come along later and load up this memory to one 
Gigabyte, which is what this machine can take and it can also accomodate a big raid of nine 
gigabyte disks and so on, so that's why we are doing. I am paying 35k, Deimos, first shot is pay-
ing roughly 10k, will pay more as time goes on, but the net result is a savings of probably 35k to 
the Deimos project. #What is this machine? #A DEC ??# ???. #It's a 600/255. #Basically it's got 
this one gig capability. #It will initially be populated with 256 plus 32, whatever that is. #Any 
chance for double then when we ?? #I don't know yet. #Anyway it will go up to one gigabyte. 
#And we should probably mention, related to that, before I had some concerns about portability 
issues of existing Keck software libraries that I am currently dealing with one of the major com-
ponents of the existing Keck kettle tasking assumes sharable libraries. Steve Allen and I did some 
experiments to confirm that in fact the sharable library mechanism on DEC alpha`s compatible 
with what we experienced on Suns. So that way we have a portable issue. #So how much RAM do 
you get when it shows up Sandy? 288. It's roughly 10k for each quarter 256 meg after that. 
Another 30k will bring it up to one gigabyte. #Thirty thousand dollars, that means. #For clarity in 
terms of its use, who's responsible for it and who controls its use in terms of priorities? #This is to 
be worked out, because this is a machine that you and I and our group is going to be using for 
reducing our DEEP data. On the other hand the agreement.. #And also software development of 
interfaces and things like that, or no. #No, I don't think so, this is for crunching large amounts of 
dat.. #Right, for doing feasability tests to determin how we are going to do data reduction. #To 
read in a huge memory we'd like to do real tasks on it. #That's what I meant, but the user interface 
is something different.. #The user interface you don't need a monster to handle that. #The data 
handling, yes and the quick look data analysis, and all of that. # That is what I was talking about. 
#So this has not been worked out, its going to be have to shared, we might have to have some kind 
of schedule. We are aware that there is this problem and Bob Kibrick quite properly said that dur-
ing regular working hours when Steve and other people are supposed to be doing this job they 
should have the machine without any background jobs hanging around and clogging up the sys-
tem. So we will work it out. #So is somebody responsible? I just want to make sure that it doesn't 
get dropped the ball?? #It won't. #Ok. The CDR. First I guess I have an outline which is all typed 
up and everything but I couldn't get my computer to spit out and I couldn't find a hard copy of for 
the CDR outline. #Oh, I have it right here. That one there? #Yeah. I was going to bring it for any-
one new, I can email it to you as soon as I get my facilities back. Particularly we had asked for 
outlines as of a couple of days ago: software electronics, mechanical and slitmask cutter. All of 
those I have got and passed on to Sandy. So that part is done. What I think the goal is is by Octo-
ber 8th we said, but I am sure we can push it to about the 16th to have these sections written up.  
The real goal is to mail the report on November 2, or thereabouts. #Can you email me your sec-
tions when you write them? #In what format? #Email in ASCII file, I can figure it out. It would be 
alot of faster for me to get than a Frame document. #Good. #Though hard copy can be good too. If 
you mail me an ASCII document. #I am concerned that we have, and this is partly my fault, if not 
mostly my fault. We have not even phoned up any of our CDR members. #Well that's ?? I sent 
you an email about inviting them. I'd like to be able to go ahead and invite them, we haven't even 
talked to Fabricant. #No, I meant to do that today, I've meant to do it for a week. #Is this actually 
a hard date? #The seventeenth. #Oh, its the seventeenth now, its a friday. #The nice thing is that 
we have the reprieve with the move. The move is coming at a very awful time. #My only concern 
is I guess on the fifteenth there is a dinner for Lickford`s ninetieth or something. Sounds like we 
are clear of that. #This is a friday. #So the move now? #Our move to Social Sciences is delayed a 
month. #To what day? [there follows a long stretch of many people all talking at once.] ..#Why 
don't you hold off, I really should do this, we have got to call these people. #I will start on mon-
day and I'll phone if you want. #Why don't you phone everybody? #Fair enough, I know all of 
them. #Except for that guy who is to be determined. #Oh, yes except for that. #Dr. Determined? 
#Yeah, I think Burge. #I don't know him but I will get him on the phone. #So when you give me.. 
send me a CDR outline so all of the specifics so that I can mark my ? #Are we going to make the 
statement that it is not an optical CDR? #There will be optical components. #yeah, I think that 
would be a mistake, and we are invited an optical person too. Some of the issues to do with the 
camera design, particularly the couplant are obviously going to be in the air. #yeah, I think we 
should be pointing out to Brian that we really need some simple calculations, otherwise we are 
going to look very stupid in the CDR with regard to the camera cell design. We need a little bit of 
elementary sensitivity calculations. We have talked about this before. #Now that this move date-
got put off.. I probably need to spend a couple of days next week because of all the computer 
problems, finishing up SI? Then I could probably spend a couple of days updating my program to 
do anything you like. #Good. # It justs takes a couple of days, but that takes up a good deal of next 
week. #Well, Harlan will be back so we will talk with him about how he would suggest making at 
least some elementary calculations, if he has some suggestions there. But you should also think 
about. #So you have the ability to take one of the lense elements in there and move it five thou-
sandths of an inch, tip it ten arc seconds and see what happens? #Yes. #Well done. #And the pro-
gram doesn't... you can do that, but it doesn't know what a lense is yet. I can do a mirror, but it 
doesn't know about lenses, because ESI I have been having to add sounds alot so there isn`t a 
lot.?? #Yeah, that is still a step forward. #And one of the things that still worries me is the differ-
ence in temperature coefficience which had a lot to do with out couplant, but it also means that the 
actual profile of the optical elements, when we fabricate them, it is going to be very different 
fromt the profile at zero degrees. #Well, given a couple of days I could probably put ??? backs. 
But I haven't been thinking about that task, so. #That is a very good idea. #Its a dramatic effect. 
#Zmax will do some of that, but temperature stuff, but the problem is that the optical coefficients 
for all of the materials.. in the cameras that Harlan has, he came up with himself. He has already 
scaled them to the right temperature and put them in a separate file, and that is what I am using, 
and that doesn't have a temperature commission built in. ... I am not quite sure what . #But they 
are different effects, I'd like to know the negative effect of both of them. Ok. so then the goal for 
getting the written materials is early October, if you can, the drop-deadline date about the six-
teenth, somewhere in about there. # I am assuming that I am going to be an editor again as I was 
before. #Editor in chief. #Ok. #When do you want to mail it? #November 2. #Yeah, if you get 
things to me by the sixteenth, life for me will be tolerable. Last time, I really didn't get things on 
time and it was hellish, was it not. Deanne and I .. I was also doing calculations for one of the sec-
tions over the weekend. It felt like doing a whole research paper. On top of everything else. #That 
was the flexure compensation section. #That was the section. #We were still editing ?? as the final 
was coming out of the laser printer. #Yeah, that's literally it, got a page and changed it and did it 
again. #One other hardware thing I forgot to mention, where it applies here has to do with guide 
cameras. I have started discussion going with the ?? William Loften at Keck, the Keck II guider 
requirements in trying to see whether the new guide camera that is going to be developed here by 
way might be able to usable for the Keck instrument. I guess Chris is working with way on that 
now as interface issues and so on. #Did he want to have any discussion of that at all or is this #At 
the CDR? #I don't think we do, because it's just too much. But I am very concerned that the 
whole approach to interacting with the telescope that we did on Keck one should not be replicated 
on Keck II. Has this come up in you conversations with these folks or are you really just limiting 
your conversations to hardware and detailed software issues? #We haven't gotten to that level yet, 
but basically I am just trying to get the ball rolling here, because to date we haven't gotten any 
kind of requirements. #I think some time in the spring, we should have a user interface plan with 
those guys, kind of analogous to the user interface planning that we are doing for the instrument 
itself. #Ok. It won'tl be revamping everything, it will just mean that the way things are done, 
things of that sort will need to be changed. #That is pretty much revamping everything. #Really? 
Underlining software? #I am not so sure about that, I do not know enough about software to 
understand whether I am just talking about the top layer issue or something more fundamental, I 
am concerned about that. I don't know. #I think it is more of a top level issue and its a procedural 
issue just in terms of their world view as to is the guider something that astronomer interacts with 
or is this the sole province of the telescope operator? And I think there is a very different world 
views between here and there as to what the proper role of a guider is, and who uses it. #Is that the 
same statement for the instrument rotator itself, like as in the HIRES image rotator? #Well yes. 
#Who owns the motor that rotates the instrument? Or who controls it. #But I think this is some-
thing that really effects the astronomers at a much deeper level. The rotator, yes, in terms of the 
astronomer's ability to interact with the guider I think is very limited. #It is essentiall zero, you 
can look at it, that is all you can do. #And if you ask nicely, you might get the telescope operator 
to do something with it for you. #The problem is what is the correct ?? #It's just that you are 
bringing up a whole can of worms when you talk about the underlying structure, then that would 
require many, many ... #Actually the lower levels of how we communicate guider frames back 
and forth and so on I think Loften has done a very good job in coming up with a specified protocol 
for the camera image upstrange and I am looking at that now and seeing if we can in fact fit within 
that. The user interface is much more the upper levels that I ??? . #Last couple of items are simply 
the quarterly report four is going to the SSC sometime next week sometime, the 18th I think it is 
and very soon, end of October, the next quarterly report. #I am going to get a prospectus. #It ends 
September, so about the time we have the CDR document. #What quarter? #Fifth quarter ends 
September 30th. #So I will be after people before the next team meeting for input for that report. 
#We are having another one in two weeks? #No, I will be chasing people for input for the quar-
terly report in another two weeks. #Like usual I will write my version of it and send you that as an 
idea of what might appear. #These reports go to the SSC. #Yes, if possible I would like to get 
there a little quicker than we do, but I know that it takes a while. #I didn't know who it was for. 
#Sorry. #Is there is somebody preparing budget stuff now that Marleen is hurt? #Marleen, word 
has it will be back next week. Marleen had a biking accident in Wilder Ranch. #She broke her leg. 
#The embankment survived but her leg did not. # She has got a cast that goes right to her hip.#Her 
knee was spared, which is good. #So she has been away for a week, which has again slowed down 
our whole purchasing. And that's it, the prospectus exists. I don't know why ???#We got xeroxes 
?? on a folder. #You guys should have had copies. # Yeah, we can xerox copies with that. ...[Lots 
of talking all at once].. They didn't print more than ten copies of those pictures that Roger ?? 
took.# I thought the deal was that they were only going to print ten and they were going to print 
more for internal use. #I think copyright they couldn't print more than ten, they could photocopy 
it but they couldn't print. #My impression was that they could only print ten to give out, but they 
could print more just for us. ... #Maybe we'll tell her that we will cut it in five. #Where do you 
want the slitmask? I am going to bring the slitmask ??? Where do yo want them? #Where should 
you bring them? #Yes. #This office here? #This room here would be fine. #On my desk there are 
two piles of photographs, one of them has about fifteen to twenty photos in it. Can you bring that 
to. #Let everybody know about the error that DEEP was defined twice in two places. #Sorry. #So, 
I'll just pass this around? Have you all seen this? #I saw a xerox of it. #Ok, this is a black and 
white one, this is a color one. #That is sharp. #This has ??? generations# i couldn`t see who was 
sitting on top of HIRES in the picture. #That's Eric I think. #That came out nice.. That's the best 
page. .... #Next meeting, can we be reminded of when our next meeting is? #I was going to ask 
when you want to do. #I won't be back until ??? The first week in November. .That way there can 
be a team meeting and a get ready for the CDR and another one a week after that. #That seems 
like a long time to me. #Ok. #Cause first two weeks of October David will be gone, and there two 
weeks left in September. We could do it the beginning of the week of the sixteenth. #That will be 
about right, that is when the material is due and we can really rag people who haven`t gotten their 
tasks done. I think that will be terrific. #The seventeenth? How cruel. #In the morning? #yes, 9:30 
am, and I will let you know where. #I think that probably before then we should have a separate 
get together on software with you and me and David and Steve. [End of Tape.]